The Booker Prize Podcast, Episode 22: Shehan Karunatilaka's Booker Prize year

We’re only three days away from finding out who will take home the Booker Prize 2023 so who better to speak to than last year’s winner? Sri Lankan writer Shehan Karunatilaka won the prize for his searing satire The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida in 2022, and the 13 months since his win has been a whirlwind of activity. This week, Shehan joins us on the podcast to tell us all about the past year and what the 2023 winner can expect on the night of the award ceremony and beyond.

• The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida by Shehan Karunatilaka
• Agatha Christie
• Salman Rushdie
• Raymond Chandler
• John le Carré
• Armistead Maupin

Transcripts of The Booker Prize Podcast are generated using both speech recognition software and human transcribers, and as a result, may contain errors.

—

Jo Hamya:

Hello and welcome to the Booker Prize Podcast with me, Jo Hamya.

James Walton:

And me, James Walton.

Jo Hamya:

And this week with the 2023 Booker Prize winner ceremony, only days away, we’ve got a chance to find out what this year’s winner might be in for. Because we’re talking to last year’s winner, Shehan Karunatilaka, who triumphed in 2022 with his novel, The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida, set in his home country of Sri Lanka. And James, I believe you reviewed the book when it first came out, so I’m hoping you liked it.

James Walton:

Yeah, fortunately I really, really liked it. Although it’s not an easy book to summarise because so much is going on. But let me have a go. One of the problems is there can’t be many books that simultaneously bring to mind, Agatha Christie, Salman Rushdie, Raymond Chandler, Armistead Mopan, John le Carre, and Stranger Things. But this is definitely one of them. What with it being a who done it, a race against time political thriller, a hard-boiled detective tale, a ghost story, a gay love story, a magic realist novel, as well as a pretty fierce piece of reportage about the Sri Lanka civil wars of the 1980s.

So the main character is called Maali Almeida. A photojournalist who on the first page wakes up dead in an afterlife that’s kind of bureaucratic and chaotic. But then he’s eventually sort of processed. And he’s given seven days, or seven moons, in the world of the in-between to find out who murdered him before he is sent into the light. He also wants to find some way of getting his old boyfriend, DD and DD’s cousin Jaki, to discover and then to publish the photos he’s hidden of massacres. And of the high ranking officials responsible for them, which he thinks will affect Sri Lanka and indeed the world.

Along the way, he looks back on his often rackety life and also speaks to several fellow ghosts. And most of them murder victims too whose stories between them add up to a grizzly account of the many factions and groups killing each other in Sri Lanka including the Tamil Tigers, the communist JVP and the Sri Lankan Army. There’s also plenty of foreign involvement from various shady Indians, Americans, Brits, and others, one of whom is fair to say, Jo, has Sri Lanka’s best interest at heart.

Now, if this sounds like a pretty heady mix, then that certainly wouldn’t be inaccurate. But what I especially loved about the book is that all the different elements are done properly. So the whodunit part, for example, has several plausible suspects, all with genuine motives before an unguessable revelation at the end. The photos become Hitchcock star McGuffin, in which the goodies and many baddies are all looking for them in a way that brings any number of exciting cliff hangers. And the reportage is a thoroughly researched expose of real life atrocities. And though I might not have given that impression, it’s all done with a great lightness of touch and a lot of good jokes.

Jo Hamya:

So with all that being said, we had a great time talking to Shehan about many things, principally what it’s like to be at the winner ceremony on the night. The emotions involved, the prep involved, the manicures one may have.

James Walton:

And the abstinence involved as well with the two glass maximum, I think?

Jo Hamya:

Yes. And we do speak to him a little bit more about The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida, as well as his own reading habits and his taste in music. It’s a wide ranging, but really fun interview, I think.

James Walton:

And cricket, of course, Jo.

Jo Hamya:

Oh, and how could I forget the cricket? So without further ado, I think we should play our interview with Shehan.

James Walton:

Why not?

Jo Hamya:

Shehan, welcome to the Booker Prize Podcast. Thank you so much for coming on for us. So I’m wondering if we can go back a year to a few days before the ceremony. When did you arrive in London and do you remember how you were feeling?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yeah, so look, it’s been over a year. It’s been 13 months. It was October 18th when it happened, and for whatever reason, ceremony’s in late November. So I get to hold onto my crown and sash and tiara for a little while longer and travel the world.

But yeah, I’ve gone back and thought about it and revisited that moment. What a bizarre year it was, 2022, because I guess people forget Sri Lanka was on complete economic collapse and people were on the streets. And that was the backdrop to which I got the longlist news and the shortlist news. We were in petrol queues and shouting down presidents and jumping in his pool, and all of that stuff was happening. And Sri Lanka was surprisingly winning the cricket as well. And during that time, this longlist, shortlist thing happened. So I got there, and it had been such a journey to get this book even published. And just to finish it was seven years and there was a very real possibility that it wouldn’t get published in the UK. That’s what the initial response was.

So my mindset was in that year was, “Okay, it’s going to get published in the UK. It’s done, my job’s done. Move on to something else.” And then busy dealing with the dystopia that we were living in. So I came over thinking Booker shortlist, that’s not too shabby. At least the book’s going to get read in the UK. Reviewed. That’s fine. And me and my wife, we get to dump the kids with the grandparents. Have a nice week in London.

Of course, it was a very stressful week because you are there with, and all the books. At that time I hadn’t read the other shortlistees. But it’s all quality person, it’s there. Claire Keegan, and we’re all really nervous and polite to each other. But these are scary interviews. Live on BBC and this and that. So I just remember turning up on Monday, dressed in this suit, and just thinking, “Okay, today I don’t need to speak. This is great.” And I was telling my wife also, “Yeah, someone else is probably going to win. It’s a dice roll. We all know this, one in six, someone’s going to win. And then we can go and have a nice holiday in Cornwall. I can start my next book.” And that’s kind of where I went in with it.

So I suppose I joined the occasion, but of course I had a few notes in my pocket because you don’t want to wing it in that situation. So I had a few notes, but I went in thinking, “Yeah, let’s have a nice time.” And I didn’t drink too much. Romesh Gunesekera, the great Sri Lankan writer who’d been shortlisted a few times, told me, “Don’t drink more than two glasses of wine. If you lose, you might make a fool of yourself. If you win, you might make a bigger fool of yourself.” So I took the advice. But yeah, went in with zero expectations. And then suddenly came out to the chaos that has only just abated, I would say.

Jo Hamya:

That’s so funny because I was at the ceremony that year and I remember thinking very clearly that your book would win. I actually said this to the table I was sat with and had this really smug feeling of satisfaction when The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida was announced.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

You didn’t bet on it. I know you guys done a podcast on the bookies and the Booker.

Jo Hamya:

I should have bet on it actually.

James Walton:

It might be regarded as insider trading, I think, from us.

Jo Hamya:

Yeah, that’s true. I’d get done for fraud.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

I also wondered that, because I was thinking of betting on all the other guys hoping to make a profit either way. But yeah, that would be kind of match fixing as well. Right? So I abstained.

Jo Hamya:

I love the detail of the black nail polish.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yeah, I’m still rocking it. Yeah.

Jo Hamya:

You’re still rocking it.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yes.

Jo Hamya:

Yeah. So could you explain the significance of the black nail varnish for us, please?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, I’d like to say it has to do with my research into Sri Lankan folklore and the things that I found, and it was part of a ritual. But to be honest, it was the video of More Than Words by Extreme. Nuno Bettencourt, the guitarist, had black fingernail polish, and that was the first song that I learned. And it’s just one of those juvenile things you do when you’re into your 40s, which you shouldn’t be doing. But I used to paint my nails and play guitar. And I play guitar, not very well. But I like the way it looks. It almost looks as good as the guy on MTV. And I was doing this, and then my wife said, “Look, you’re going to the Booker Prize. You’re going to meet the Queen. I’m going to take you to a manicurist and get this nonsense off.”

But foolishly, she left me alone with the manicurist. And I was sitting there while she was taking the polish off, and I said, “Madam, a bit of your finest black matte polish, please. I’m about to go and meet the Queen.” And so she painted it. And then I was holding the Booker Prize with this, and so now, I have to keep it up. But yeah, it still looks good when I’m playing guitar is the true answer. So I guess these are juvenile things that I’m going to carry into my 50s as well. No one approves. But I held the Booker Prize with my black nail polish hands, so now I have to keep that up.

James Walton:

When do you actually know that you’ve won? I think in the old days when cameras were on massive wheels, the BBC cameras would start trundling towards the winner’s table before the announcement. But is it a bit more subtle now? Do you just not know until it’s read out? Or are there signs that you, maybe it’s me, before the actual announcement?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, I’ll give you a little insider tip. Watch the lighting guy. So that’s the equivalent now of the trundling camera. I wasn’t watching the lighting guy. I watched the seating arrangements. But of course, no, you get a heads up, I think, the publishers for the shortlist and the longlist. But for this, certainly not. And though I suspect members of the press, it might’ve leaked. I don’t know, because I had a few knowing and strange conversations beforehand. But no, no. It’s as far as our table was concerned, yeah, it was a complete surprise.

Jo Hamya:

So something that I remember from that night is you were giving your speech and Samira Ahmed was really chivying you along because of the time constraints for BBC coverage. You seemed really happy. But in retrospect, do you feel annoyed about that? How do you remember that moment?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, we were told, I think maybe even a few days before, one minute. In the event that you should win, you have one minute. And I thought, “Come on, that’s ridiculous.” But I said, “Look, you’re not going to win, but one minute, let’s worry about that when we get to it, if we get to it.” And so I had obviously a few people to thank. I also did want to speak in Sinhala and in Tamil. My Sinhala is decent. My Tamil, I’ve just been taking lessons. So I had to get my Tamil language teacher to give me something to say. So I had that all lined up, and I didn’t think they were going to really enforce it. In Sri Lanka, we say, “Yeah, we’ll be there in 10 minutes,” and they’re there half an hour. So I thought one minute was Sri Lankan time, and I thought I could take it. But I realised later that it was simulcast on one of the radio stations, and therefore the 10 o’clock news cannot be at 10:01.

And also, I think the nightmare when you speak in a foreign language, they don’t know if I’m swearing or inciting a riot or something. So I can understand why they work. But I got to say as much as I could. And yeah, thanked everyone, and so it was fine. But yeah, it was a bit odd. I think since, I haven’t watched it. I really haven’t. People send it to me and make comments. But I think I took seven minutes, which is okay, Sri Lankan time for one minute. But then I heard, I met Eleanor Catton, and she said they were given 20 minutes.

James Walton:

One minute is nuts though, isn’t it really? Just for those who haven’t caught up. What did you say in the Tamil and the Sinhalese?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

If I recall, I think I might’ve made a crack about the cricket because we just lost to Namibia. But I said, “If this can happen, anything can happen.” And then I just said, “That I wrote the book for you.” And this is true. I didn’t think about a publisher in London or a producer in Hollywood or anything. I wrote it for Sri Lankans who had lived through this. And in Tamil, I couldn’t be too ambitious. It was just a little slogan about let’s keep all telling our stories. Because look, there’s plenty of untold stories of the last 30 years in Sri Lanka. And I’m really slow, I only write two books every 15 years. So I said, we should all tell our stories and something to that effect. So it was just a bit of sloganeering and a crack about the cricket. But yeah, that was it. Nothing too controversial.

Jo Hamya:

Not inciting a riot.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

No, no, certainly not.

Jo Hamya:

One of the things that happens for a winner at a Booker ceremony that’s a bit out of the ordinary for the everyday person is that you end up having a chat with the Queen Consort. And what was that like? Were you in any way nervous? Does your mind go blank? Because I think mine would.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Look, my mom’s really into the royalty, so is my wife and everyone around me. I watched The Crown. I think it’s a great series. Peter Morgan, big fan. But again, they’d visited, I think her and the King, had visited Sri Lanka. And they were talking about the beaches, and obviously they’re very well trained. They know how to speak to people. So we had a nice conversation. And yeah. It’s only later that my wife freaked out, took some pictures. And then my aunties afterwards asked, “You weren’t supposed to touch the Queen,” because I think we ended up giving her a hug. I didn’t really think. We are taught if our auntie gives you a nice present, you must say, “Thank you auntie,” and hug her. So I did that. But yeah, there was appro among my aunties back home, you shouldn’t have done that. But yeah, very nice lady. And we had a nice chat.

James Walton:

While Jo rolls her eyes a little bit, you mentioned cricket. I’d like to just come back to that. Does cricket affect the national mood in Sri Lanka. Is it a big part of everyday life?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yeah, yeah. Well, look, this wasn’t surprising. And there’s not that level of violence that you associate maybe with our neighbours in the subcontinent. There’s no players getting things thrown at them and houses, there’s none of that. And also we’re resigned to, we’ve been losers for most of when I’ve been growing up in the 80s. So we’re kind of used to that, but there’s always hope.

James Walton:

And just before we move on from cricket, but this is about books, I promise. Because your first book was Chinaman and was voted by no less than Wisden, as the second best cricket book ever. And the best cricket novel ever. Presumably that was quite an honour.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Of course. That was amazing. This is a good few years after the book had come out, and I was well into writing Seven Moons. But yes, I think it beat out the likes of Conan Doyle and PG Ward House. And so I’ll take that for sure. And yeah, no less than Wisden. W.G., the lead character, the drunken journalist in the book would’ve been very proud, for sure.

Jo Hamya:

I’m returning to a non-cricket-based life question.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yeah, yeah. Enough cricket.

Jo Hamya:

This is surely a question you’ve been asked many times now. But I wonder maybe if we could track the progress of a year of the response to your win in Sri Lanka, because you are not the first Sri Lankan winner. That was Michael Odjante. But you are the first author to still live there. But at the same time, there may be a sense that the book paints a pretty grim picture of Sri Lanka. So was the main response national pride or was it a bit more muted? How has it gone over the last year?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, that happened right during the height of the Aragalaya and the economic collapse. And so you don’t have petrol or gas and food stuff. So books are non-essential. So no one had read the book when the win happened, but we celebrate wins. So I remember being congratulated by the president and the leader of the opposition and all these politicians. And yeah, I don’t any way respond to emails, let alone tweets. So I let the Twitter mob descend going, “Have you guys actually read the book? We think it might be about guys like you,” and all of that. But I think initially it was. We needed a win, so it was taken. Now, obviously books have come in and people have read it. I think predominantly, especially those who lived through it, I know it’s got talking animals and demons and ghosts, but I haven’t made up any of the facts of the carnage and the conflict. If anything, the real stories are far more gruesome.

So I don’t think even a detractor could say that I made that stuff up. But of course, you always get trolls. And there’s been a few trolls who review and have left comments. And the gist of the argument is, and again, I’ve heard it before, when a Sri Lankan film that talks about the war wins at Cannes or Venice or something. It’s like, “Is this how you win awards in the West by portraying our land as a bunch of savages killing each other, and this is how you sell this dystopia to the West?”

That’s why I alluded to that in the speech as well, that I wish this book was pure fantasy. And I did have a moment in 2015 when Sri Lanka was on a peaceful footing, and it looked like things might improve. That would people believe that these things happened? Would they think I made it up? So I think generally the reaction’s been positive. The book is now been translated into many languages, and most of all Sinhala and in Tamil. So it remains to be seen what happens when a wider readership gets hold of it.

But I think, look, generally these are the things we did to each other, and I don’t think anyone can dispute. I don’t think the political commentary in the book, it’s pretty shallow, I think. It just scratches the surface and says, there’s no good guys in this war. It’s just bad guys. Maybe there’s no good guys in any war. But also, I felt safe because I’m writing about the late 80s, and we’ve had many catastrophes since then. And also, late 80s means most of the characters are dead who could take offence. So that’s why I feel a bit safer. And we have our present day catastrophes to worry about. So I think, yeah, so far it’s been all right.

Jo Hamya:

Moving on to a very classic Booker question. You were the recipient of a wonderful tax-free 50 grand that every writer dreams of. What did you do with the money?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, I bought a drum kit. That was the extravagant thing. For my son, of course, because he is taking drum lessons. But yeah, you can’t see my room. I’m in here with five guitars and a keyboard, and I thought I needed a drum kit. Aside from that, no. Look, I spend my money, same things I did when I was like 13. It’s books and was CDs then. Now it’s vinyl. But yeah, now it’s guitar pedals. So I still spend money like a teenager. Guitar pedals, records and books. So yeah, I’ve had to acquaint myself with accountants and tax consultant and even investment advisors who never would open the door to me before. So yeah, I’m being pretty sensible. Though I may get another guitar or a saxophone. But I think aside from that, yeah, and my kids should be okay.

But I think more than the prize itself, I think what the Booker does is now the book’s been published in 20 something languages. Maybe a few more. So yeah, firstly, I’m getting to travel around to these places. But the readership. Before, my readership was exclusively sub continental, and nothing wrong with that. That was fine. I thought that’s who I’m writing for. So I think that’s what the real thing. So if a Booker winner wants to bust it all in Vegas, I think it’s fine because you can celebrate how you like. I celebrate with a drum kit.

Jo Hamya:

Well, there are two very interesting points there. Maybe we’ll come onto the expansion of your audience in a second. But I looked at your website a few nights ago. And was really struck to see that, as well as an author, you still advertise yourself as a copywriter. Do you still copyright? Have you kept your day job?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yes, after the European tour, I also did a bit of travel writing with a feature writing. So yeah, I did a little travel piece from Europe. It’s kind of strange not to. And I’ve kind of organised my day around it for so long. You do a couple hours of work, then you do a couple hours of writing. And I’ve kind of worked it that way. But the thing is, I don’t have to. I don’t have to take on X amount of jobs to pay the bills now. This is the good fortune of this thing. But yeah, I still keep it going. Why not? Because I still enjoy copywriting. I still enjoy travel writing. It’s not the path to riches and fame, but it’s great writing experience. Even if you’re writing about milk powder or banks, you learn something from it.

Jo Hamya:

What does it give you that writing a novel doesn’t?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

So I think the best thing I got. We used to not work from home in my pyjamas. I used to go into ad agencies and do a day job. Is that you have to be creative every day. You can’t wait for inspiration to strike, or you can’t blame writer’s block. If the client’s turning up tomorrow morning and you have nothing, you need to somehow find a way to come up with. And so then you develop techniques to deal with the panic, deal with the pressure, but also to come up with ideas and have something. It may not be great, but do something every day.

And I think that’s a useful thing for a novelist as well, or a short story writer, that you don’t wait for inspiration. This is the first week that I’ve worked properly since then. Started on Monday, and I am working on a few new things. And most days are bad. Like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, nothing. And then yesterday I wrote a few sentences. And today, if I wasn’t interrupted by this podcast, I might have written a symphony.

James Walton:

Sorry.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

But I came close. Yeah, that’s okay. That’s okay. Two sentences is fine. But yeah, I think that was the main thing that you just turn up every day. And yeah, if you get a page on Friday, that’s a good week.

Jo Hamya:

So going back to the expansion of your audience. Something that I find really, really fascinating is the fact that the Seven Moons went through a really rigorous editing process with your UK publisher, I believe?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yes.

Jo Hamya:

What sort of amendments did you have to make to get your novel over to an anglophone or Western audience?

James Walton:

It had already been published in India, hadn’t it, as Chats with Ghosts in 2020, is that right?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Chats with the Dead, yes.

James Walton:

Chats with the Dead, sorry.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

So Natania Jansz my publisher and editor, she hates me talking about this stuff. She goes, “No, no, these are secrets. Don’t tell anyone. Just say you just corrected the grammar.”

James Walton:

You can tell us.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

But yeah, you won’t tell anyone.

Jo Hamya:

Never.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

So I had this relationship with Natania and Mark. I’d done travel writing assignments for them, but they’d always been very generous, and it’s very rare to find, generous with their comments. So I’d send them a story or something unrelated to what I was working with them, and they’d give me really good feedback. And so the Chats with the Dead, I thought it was done, and India was enthusiastic. But also, it came out Jan 2020, so just before COVID. But it got reviewed a few times and nothing much happened. But more tellingly, the UK and the US people who had enjoyed Chinamen were finding this difficult. And said, “We were not sure Western readership will relate to this very complicated war and this very complicated afterlife and all these different strands.”

And so initially when Natania came on board. When she read it, because I just sent her out a desperation saying, “It looks like this thing won’t get published out of India. Is it fixable?” And she said, “Yeah, I think it is, but it needs a lot of work. You just need to make it easier for a Western reader.” And I didn’t mind it. Again, back to my copywriting days. Client changes your copy all the time. You think you’ve nailed it, you’ve cracked it, you’ve sent it, and it comes back on a Friday afternoon with red marks through it. So I didn’t mind that because I thought, “Look, Chinaman should be enjoyed by anyone who has never watched a cricket match.” That was my brief. And I think it can be, if you get past the first 20, 30 pages, it’s a story about other stuff than cricket.

And so I thought, okay, fine. So I think one of the briefs was just make it so nothing about the Sri Lankan conflict. You have enough information to go by. Also, if you know nothing about the South Asian folklore about demons and ghosts and the afterlife, the rule should be clear. So initially that was all, and that was six months of work to fix that. But it was the pandemic. So we have another year to play with.

And then, I remember the comment, which I’ve said many times, and once it came back, “Terrific work, Shahen, but I think the beginning’s very confusing still. The ending doesn’t quite land and the middle’s quite boring. But other than that, it’s brilliant, and please keep going.” And in the end, if you compare Chats with the Dead with Seven Moons, which I don’t really want to do personally. But I think Richard Simon, a Sri Lankan reviewer, has done and done a great job. It’s the same. And he says it uses the same words to tell a very different story. And I think that’s probably fair.

James Walton:

It’s also a very funny book. Why make it funny? On the face of it, it’s not a subjective full of laughs, but it’s a book full of laughs.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yeah. It’s not like I wrote it straight and added the jokes. I think even with both books. The first book Chinaman’s about an old man drinking himself to death and deciding to spend his last year watching cricket documentaries and chasing a cricketer. And it should be a depressing story. But I don’t think it is because of the narrator being this archetype that we’ve all grown up with. The Sri Lanka uncle, the drunk Sri Lankan uncle who is an expert on cricket, on world politics, on any subject after a half a bottle or so. And so that character lent itself to the jokes. Even though when he is talking about his grim situation, he’s seeing poetry. And so I think it’s choice of narrator as well. So maybe it’s my sensibility. And you can’t talk about these gruesome things and it’ll be tough to write and probably doubly tough to read. But also I think maybe it’s the Sri Lankan sensibility that we have experienced absurdity and comedy and tragedy, and it’s not a tragic or depressing place. Anyone who visited here even shortly after a catastrophe will attest to that.

It seems like even during the height of last year, the Aragalaya, when people were desperate and wondering where the next meal was coming from, the jokes never stopped. Even on the streets, there was anger and tension, but there was some hilarious chance to rival the football chance. You hear in the stadiums and online, the memes, people openly mocking their leaders with humour. And that’s been Sri Lanka’s way of coping with the idea that this beautiful paradise has been wrecked by civil war, by dictatorship, by economic collapse. What is the reason for this? And yeah, we make jokes about it, which isn’t always most productive, but it’s better than punching each other. So yeah, I think misplaced optimism and dark humour is part of the Sri Lanka makeup. So I think it wasn’t really a big choice. I liked Maali’s voice like I liked W.G.’s voice. And he was sort of this catty closet gay guy. Even when he’s watching his body being chopped up, he thinks of a few wise cracks and things like that. Yeah.

Jo Hamya:

Shehan, what are your influences as a writer, literarily or otherwise? I’m actually always very interested in when writers profess a particular love of music, whether music in any way influences their writing. But are there any authors or musicians that you look to?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

You read stuff that you want to write and you read stuff related to the subject matter. So yeah, there’s a lot of reading about the history of Sri Lanka’s wars. And also ghost stories right back from Lovecraft and Poe, M.R. James to Stephen King, Clive. But that’s stuff I read as a teenager anyway. I think that’s the other thing with finishing a novel, even though I take so long, it’s the research. Because the research bears you down, so you need to find a topic you enjoy. So I had to research cricket and drunks for the first one. This one was ghosts and war. So that was pretty much it. But I think in terms of writers with both, but certainly with this, I keep name checking Kurt Vonnegut. I read him for Chinaman to get that curmudgeonly tone. And certainly for this, when you’re talking about humanity’s capacity for cruelty and atrocity. But you’re doing it in a way that’s actually entertaining almost jokey.

Douglas Adams. George Saunders. So when Lincoln in the Bardo won the Booker, I was devastated. I thought, “Oh my God, a talking Ghost book wins. Everyone’s going to have say to I’m ripping off this.” But of course, that ended up inspiring me and the great man who I know you’ve had on the show. Yeah, I met him very briefly. And so I think writers, Margaret Atwood as well, who write about grim subjects. But doing it in a way that’s not grim, that’s actually entertaining and therefore a lot more heartbreaking. But I think as a Sri Lankan writer, there was no path. Growing up in the 80s, there wasn’t even a shelf. Now you have a Sri Lankan section, you have an Asian section. There wasn’t even a shelf for Sri Lankan books.

And if the ones you had were sort of self-published things that sounded like they were written by an Englishman. By a Graham Greene or E.M Forster. And that was how we wrote. We had to prove to ourselves that we could write as well as English person. So I think the doors that open, obviously Midnight’s Children, by Rushdie. I’m certainly not the only one in South Asia. But I think on a local level, it was Carl Muller. Odjante and Romesh Gunesekera and Shyam Selvadurai were the celebrated writers. But I never thought I could write as elegantly as them. But Carl Muller similarly wrote how Sri Lankan spoke. And now it’s quite commonplace that we don’t try to write people who don’t sound like us. That’s seen as a mark of good writing.

So I think those were the people that gave us permission. And since Rushdie, there’s been Arundhati Roy and [inaudible 00:31:19] and the Golden age of Pakistani writers. So I think Hanif and Mohsin Hamid and Kamila Shamsie and Naqvi especially. You read a lot of these guys, and they’re talking about different dystopias to your own, but they’re talking in the way that we speak, which is not always correct, not always grammatical. Sometimes the syntax is all over, but it’s got its own music to it. So I think you can see that influence clearly. But if I look at my taste, I think you’d see a lot of pulp influence in here. I did read The Tibetan Book of the Dead and Dante’s Inferno, and I read the religious text. But I also read a lot of Clive Barker and Sandman comics, and the depiction of the afterlife owes a lot to Hellraiser, I think.

Yeah. So I think broadly speaking, those were the influencers. And of course, Cormack McCarthy. Not a lot of jokes there, but certainly in describing violence with poetry, I think. I’d have the audio book plugged in when I went to sleep. I don’t know what that did to my dreams. I never remember them, but who knows. But yeah, those are the range of influencers. Music not so much, really. I tend to play just instrumental when I’m writing. It’s only data. But yeah, the characters have terrible music taste, I think, all my characters. I think W.G. was into Meatloaf and Jaki’s into Goth. Yeah, I don’t know.

James Walton:

Surprising amount of Shakin’ Stevens in the book, actually.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Shakin’ Stevens. Yes. Now I like Shakin’ Stevens. Yes.

James Walton:

He was the biggest selling singles artist in Britain of the 80s, I think as well. Yeah. But I’m surprised to know that he was big in Sri Lanka as well.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

He played a stadium in 2017. I missed it. Yeah, he’s big. Yeah. And deservedly, so. Elvis copied all his moves from Shakin’ Stevens. Yes.

Jo Hamya:

I’m sorry. I’m going to take us back a little bit to the conversation about influences, because something I think that happens very often is that it’s quite natural to talk about influences in a very abstract way. But I’m always very interested to know how people read practically. What their reading habits are. Where do you prefer to read? Is there a time of day that you prefer? Do you underline, do you bookmark? Do you believe in dog earing, that sort of thing?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, so I have, aside from the guitars, these piles of books, and they’re always around the different topics. So there’ll be a pile of short stories. A pile of maybe poetry if I’m that way inclined. What am I looking at? There’s a pile of stuff that I’m researching for a story. And so yeah, you form these little bits and pieces, and I usually have about five to six in that pile, or maybe seven. And reading, I have to schedule it like a workout, otherwise I don’t get through the stuff I need to. So it’s usually really early in the morning. So maybe four or five in the morning for an hour. But it’ll be one thing. And it may just be novels that I’m reading at the moment. And sometimes it’s not related to anything. You might just read something for fun.

But I think this is a compulsion I felt, long before I started, was that if I don’t read today or write today. And now maybe I can expand to playing with my kids. If I don’t do those three things, the day is wasted somehow. And I may have done some great things. I think maybe that’s a compulsion. So to get the compulsion out of the way, I wake up very early. Read for an hour, write for an hour, take the kids to school, and then boxes are ticked. I can just watch YouTube and drink beer all day. It’s fine. And so it’s the morning where I do that. But it’s always, yeah, it’s in my room at this little chair surrounded by all these books and records.

But yeah, it’s generally the makeup. Also, I curated, there’ll be something really challenging, a classic that I should have read, but haven’t. And then just something fun. Short story, a bit of nonfiction and a few silly things. And I just dip in and out until one has momentum, and then I’ll smash it out in the evening. But yeah, I do have to schedule it, because especially on the road in the past year. You go through weeks, months where you’ve been stuck on the same book. And that’s quite depressing for me. So many books, so little time. And you think time I’m not spending reading, I’m wasting, or writing. Yeah.

Jo Hamya:

Can I ask what book you spent your morning with today?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yes. The World for Sale. It’s a bit of a game. Might give you a clue what I’m writing. It’s about commodity traders. The World for Sale, Javier Blas and Jack Farchy. It’s nonfiction book. And also, I was reading David Sedaris, his collected essays. So I was flitting between those two. So yeah, about the robber barons who run our world and Dave Sedaris and is amusing. But it kind of puts you in a nice mood for writing, reading good stuff.

Jo Hamya:

The Sedaris or The World for Sale?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

They both do. They both do.

Jo Hamya:

I believe you’re going to the ceremony this November as well.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yes. Yes, I am.

Jo Hamya:

Do you have any advice for this year’s shortlistees on how to negotiate that difficult night?

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Well, by the time I meet them, it’ll be too late, I think. But I would just say enjoy it, because look, most of us write in anonymity. And I’m quite content to do that as long as the books get written. And this is something you wear as a badge forever. A book is shortlisted. And so that’s a victory. And that’s the attitude. That’s a victory. And so I would just enjoy it.

And yeah, there are a lot of terrifying things. And it’s more terrifying if you win. And they leak what you have to do if you win, which is pretty much wall-to-wall interviews for the next 48 hours after you win. And you look at that, and maybe it’s done to comfort those who don’t because you think, “Wow, that doesn’t look like fun at all.” But yeah, I would just say, as hallmark as it is, you’ve all won. This is a badge no one can take from you. And yeah, just enjoy the moment. And yeah, like Romesh Gunesekera said, “Make sure you’re not too drunk at the ceremony.” And yeah, good luck to you. I’m glad to be handing it over and crawling back into the shadows writing anonymously for however long it takes. But no, it’s a great ride.

James Walton:

Oh, listen, thank you so much for your time. I think it’s been a delight talking to you. And thank you very much. And congratulations again for the rest of your reign as Booker champion, and we’ll maybe see you at the dinner.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

Yes, yes.

Jo Hamya:

Thank you, Shehan.

Shehan Karunatilaka:

I’m looking forward to it. Thank you. Thank you Jo and James. Thanks.

James Walton:

So Jo, I think we both agree a cracker fella?

Jo Hamya:

Yeah, definitely. Everyone in the room has been laughing for the entirety of the interview. It’s like everyone would love to get a pint with Shehan. And hopefully we will come the next few days.

James Walton:

And yeah, obviously what you couldn’t see on the podcast was that his room was indeed full of guitars and books. And I did like that idea that he spends his money like he did when he was a teenager, basically on books and records. I’m guilty. I’m guilty as charged on that too.

Jo Hamya:

Yeah. I don’t think I can get on board with the whole waking up at five to read thing though.

James Walton:

I like to think I’m a bookish fellow. But yeah, five o’clock in the morning to read, no. I don’t think so. But anyway, in the meantime, you can find out more about The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida at thebookerprizes.com. We now also have a Facebook book group. You can join at facebook.com/TheBookerPrizes. A phrase with a lot of book in it.

Jo Hamya:

And it’s that time of the year. Please do remember to tune in on Sunday to find out live, the winner of the 2023 Booker Prize. You can do that also at thebookerprizes.com.

James Walton:

Next week we’ll be reporting from behind the scenes of the ceremony, so you won’t want to miss that.

Jo Hamya:

And finally, do remember to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Substack at the Booker Prizes.

James Walton:

Until next time. Goodbye.

Jo Hamya:

Goodbye.

James Walton:

The Booker Prize Podcast is hosted by Jo Hamya and me, James Walton. It’s produced and edited by Kevin Muyolo, and the executive producer is John Davenport. It’s a Daddy’s SuperYacht Production for the Booker Prizes.